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Summary

Welcome to today’s episode! I’m thrilled to have Eloise Rickman, the insightful author of It’s Not Fair, joining me. As the Mighty Mother on Instagram, Eloise shares a powerful perspective on children’s rights and the systemic injustices they face. Her book is a love letter to children, advocating for their autonomy and urging adults to recognize the significant voices of the young.

In our conversation, we delve into the complexities of parenting and the challenges of transitioning from controlling caretakers to respectful partners in our children’s lives. Eloise and I explore how societal norms shape our interactions with kids and discuss practical strategies for nurturing their independence while maintaining our own well-being.

Join us as we unpack the meaningful work of raising aware, empowered children in a world that often overlooks their needs. Whether you’re a parent, caregiver, or just curious about the nuances of child-rearing, there’s something here for everyone. Tune in for a heartfelt exploration of love, liberation, and the importance of listening to our children!

Follow Eloise Rickman on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mightymother_

Purchase Eloise’s book: It’s Not Fair: why its time for a grown-up conversation about how adults treat children: https://geni.us/ItsNotFair

FREE Unschooling Resources:
👉 Take the Quiz: What’s Your Homeschooling Superpower? https://thesereveries.com/quiz
👉 10 Simple Ways to Connect With Your Child https://thesereveries.com/10-simple-ways-to-connect-with-your-child
👉 Is Unschooling Right For Me? https://thesereveries.com/is-unschooling-right-for-me-guide

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Read the Transcript:

Adrienne Miller 0:00

Hey there. Today’s guest is Eloise Rickman. She’s Mighty Mother on Instagram, and she has a new book out called It’s Not Fair, and I’m so excited to have you here. Welcome.

Eloise Rickman 0:11

Hi. And I have to say, I didn’t realize we would be doing this on video, hence, I’m very close up for anyone who’s watching this YouTube. So an apologies. It’s nice to be here. That’s okay. Thank you for having me.

Adrienne Miller 0:22

Yeah. Yes. I’m honored to have you. So tell me about your book first. Let’s get that. Yeah. Oh, there.

Eloise Rickman 0:27

So it just came out here in the uk and it’s coming out in the US in Australia, either very soon or is already out, depending on Whis Goes Live. And the book is, I know lots of people say this about books they’ve written, but it really is the book that I sort of wish I had had myself a long time ago when my daughter was very young, or ideally even when I was pregnant with her. Um, mm-Hmm. . So I have a 9-year-old daughter, and this book is, it’s really a kind of love letter to the idea of children being full people, full humans. Yes. Rather than future people, as they are so often seen in discussions. Um, in it, it’s kind of a manifesto for children’s rights and for taking children’s rights seriously, and for listening to children’s voices. And in it, I argue that akin to the sort of women’s liberation movements that we’ve seen across the decades to black liberation movements, to fat liberation, to disability liberation.

Eloise Rickman 1:27

We also need to be thinking about children’s liberation. And in the book, I put forward for argument that one of the first injustices that people will tend to experience is that of being a child. Yes. Unlike experiencing racism or sexism or homophobia or transphobia, everyone experiences autism, which is the kind of systematic structural discrimination of children in a society. Mm-Hmm. that is built for adults and for adult needs. And that this sort of paves the way for future injustices too, because it teaches children right from the first, you know, weeks, months, years of their lives, that if you have more power, if you’re an adult, you can make people with less power do what you want them to do. And if they don’t do that mm-Hmm. Then you have full ability to punish them or to shame them, or to humiliate them.

Eloise Rickman 2:21

And we learn this at home. We learn this in the classroom, and we learn it in our, um, in our social structures, in our institutions. You know, children are in many places still the only people who can legally be hit by parents and caregivers. Right. Um, here in England where I’m recording, it’s still legal to smack your child as discipline. Right. Um, right. And also, children are often the last population who don’t have a democratic voice. I can’t vote. Um, mm-Hmm. . So, you know, kind of across the board, we can see injustice in children’s lives. And that’s where the title came from. You know, children will often say to us, this isn’t fair. And it’s only saying it’s not fair, actually how we treat children.

Eloise Rickman 3:01

Need some adjusting. And I think for so many people who are interested in social justice, you know, they might see themselves as a feminist, or they might see themselves as someone who, you know, cares deeply about re you know, addressing racial injustice. Um, but still for so many people, they have sort of failed to join the dots with how we treat children. And so this book is sort of a, a love letter to children, but also a kind of plea to adults that we need to start taking children seriously when they tell us that things aren’t there.

Adrienne Miller 3:34

I love that so much. everything about it. So first I’m gonna say I come from a really abusive childhood. Really dysfunctional, toxic home. Um, I have a lot of religious trauma. I was raised Mormon, I am not anymore, but I was raised that way. I was raised by parents who were abused themselves and who were in this community that they felt, hey, like we’re talking about God and love, and I have, you know, the support system and whatever. And so they were really in and imposed that on us. I also grew up in the eighties, you know, a time where therapy was shameful and, you know, sharing emotions was weak or whatever. So we all kind of know that from that time period, um, from generation after generation after generation of that same thing. Um, so you kind of have a perfect storm there.

Adrienne Miller 4:44

Then put in a French Catholic school, which to be honest, if they could hit us, they probably would have. We were lined up in order of test scores, you know, after every anyway, just like really traumatic. So it speaks to me so much just from that trifecta of oppressive systems that I was growing up with. You know, not even to mention being raised a girl and all of the levels that come with that, and the deep systemic oppression. So like level after level, after level, anyway. Anyway. And then that honestly is one of the main reasons why we unschool. So most of my followers are homeschoolers or homeschool curious. Some know, might know what homeschooling or unschooling is, but just for those who don’t, it is really a lifestyle. I won’t even say it’s a way of homeschooling. It’s very much set in liberation for kids especially, but adults too.

Adrienne Miller 5:55

And getting away from, you know, the status quo, getting away from mainstream thinking, getting away from convention, getting away from anything that just is, because that’s always how it’s been. Or any kind of top-down hierarchical learning or parenting or whatever. So it is very much a philosophy. It is infused in everything that we do. Um, we, I would say such a strong basis of it is trusting children honor, honoring their consent and their autonomy, and seeing them as captains of their own ship, seeing them as fully capable of being in charge of their education, their life. And so we don’t force curriculum. We don’t use threats, bribes, rewards, punishments, anything like that. So it can look typ different, it can look different from typical homeschooling in the sense that, you know, it doesn’t start in September and now we’re learning at the age of five and before we weren’t.

Adrienne Miller 7:06

And here’s the curriculum that you’re gonna learn and you’re gonna do Latin from nine to 10 and poetry from 10 to 11, and you don’t have a choice. And this is what we’re doing. We’re replicating school at home or what, what have you. So that said, I came from an environment that was so controlled and so, um, powerless and helpless and, um, shameful and humiliating and just all the things that there’s just so wrong with, um, how we treat children. And so that’s really why I’ve embraced the unschooling philosophy and lifestyle, because on my way to healing through this parenting journey, which I will say is a wild ride, to try to heal yourself while parent at the parenting at the same time. Um, but it really is so healing and so, so cathartic to be able to raise my kids from day one with them, knowing that their voice matters and knowing that they are a part of our family community.

Adrienne Miller 8:15

And knowing that they actually get to have a say in one all the things that are so unimportant, like how they dress or the color of their hair. Like all the things that I think many parents try to control but are really just so inconsequential in the grand scheme. And then two, having a voice in all the things that are very consequential, like how they spend their day, or how they spend the first 18 years of life, or, you know, what they, um, get to learn what they get to study, what they get to be passionate about, what they, uh, how they go to sleep at night. Like, all these things that I think just when we become parents, we’re like, well, I’m going to decide, I’m gonna make all these decisions because from day one, you’re given this one, you’ve provided this life. So you feel very much, I grew this, this is mine.

Adrienne Miller 9:19

They belong to me. Like, there’s that very strong attachment there. And then they are completely dependent and completely helpless, um, from day one. So it’s really hard to wrap your head around this transition of, well, at what stage do we start handing over this control and power? Because from day one, it’s, you need to sleep how I need you to sleep. And, um, in the society that we’re in, also of so many of us are in survival mode. So many of us just need sleep, or we have to go to work, which means our kids have to go to school, or they have to get rushed out the door, or there just isn’t that choice. And so can you talk a little bit about transitioning from seeing them as these helpless dependent infants to then these very strong-willed to toddlers that we have to then navigate and manage and deal with, um, while also being able to maintain some sort of what is the word? I’m not gonna say sanity, but I’m just gonna say like, maintain, maintaining our own rights for being regulated and child, right? That’s, that’s right. That’s right. Yeah. So can you please talk about that? Because I think so many people hear that and then go, that would be total chaos, and that is anarchy. And where do we draw the line and how do we, we can’t just let kids do whatever they want at all times. They don’t run the family either. So can you talk about that distinction? Yeah, of course.

Eloise Rickman 11:11

And I think, actually, it’s interesting what you say about, you know, these kind of, we go from having these kind of newborn, helpless, little mulling bundles. But actually what is fascinating, what I found so interesting researching the book is that even tiny babies, so it was actually a really fascinating study done on premature babies. So the tiniest of tiny babies. Actually, if we take time to kind of observe them and listen to them can communicate very clearly what it is that they want. So this study right done on, um, premature babies in a neonatal ward in hospital, and they were showing that actually when you observe them, they were very clear about which caregivers they liked, like which nurses they liked, and which nurses they didn’t like, and which nurses they wanted to attend them. Fascinating. And, you know, many of us will be aware, you know, if you kind of have the time, and I think also the privilege in terms of maternity leave, you know?

Eloise Rickman 12:05

Being able to take that time to dedicate to your baby without other children who need you all the time without other jobs that you need to do. When you are able to take that time, actually, newborns can communicate a lot to us. I think the problem isn’t with them, it’s often with, as you said, you know, kind of the societal conditions we find ourselves in. Again, there are really beautiful videos of like respectful diapering, for example, um, which come from, right. You know, if you look at people who follow the RIE method, you know, this idea of like, actually, if you really drill down into your child’s cues, you can change them very respectfully. You can get their cooperation and their participation in terms of getting change. You know, sometimes babies will lift their legs up to help their caregivers, but all of this is really difficult.

Eloise Rickman 12:54

And especially, you know, if people are listening in from the US where maternity leave, parental leave is just an absolute a joke. A joke, yeah. It’s appalling. You know, this is something which there is a huge privilege in being able to do. Um, but I think a lot of parents are quite shocked, you know, they have this baby, if you’ve had quite an easy ride, maybe with a young baby, you found it easier to be kind of more instinctive maybe than you thought you were. And then suddenly you have this older child, be very toddler, be there, you know, 3, 4, 5, who suddenly has these really strong ideas about what they want to do. And those ideas are often quite different from your ideas about what you wanna do too. And, you know, as children grow older, this keeps happening and it’s, you know, a negotiation.

Eloise Rickman 13:41

And I think what has helped me is to just try and see it as much as possible as this is another relationship in my life. You know, how would I yes. Be treated in this relationship? Which I think is helpful for both ways. I think it’s a reminder to treat our children with respect and to listen to them and to listen to their voice and to involve them in decision making just as we would a romantic partner or a friend, you know, but also I think on the flip side, it means that we don’t fall too much into the pressure or the perceived needs to kind of give ourselves up entirely or become almost, and sacrifice our own needs. Because just as in, you know, a healthy romantic relationship, it’s not about, you know, one person rules the relationship and the other person goes along and, you know, if you want to give power back to the other person, then you are negating all of yours.

Eloise Rickman 14:34

It’s about trying to figure out ways for everyone to get their needs met and for everyone to feel heard and for everyone to feel safe, and for everyone to feel like a kind of happy, contributing member of the family. All of this, however, again, is much easier said than done. I think. Um, you know, so many people, you know, you’ve shared your own experience, haven’t had that modeled to them growing up. Mm-Hmm. . And we live in societies, which I think give so much, you know, pressure on parents, on caregivers to be everything to our children. And, you know, some of it even very well-meaning messages around like oh, the first three years are so important. The so first x number of months are gonna shape your baby’s brain. It puts a lot of pressure on caregivers, I think, especially mothers. You know, we really, um, take in this idea that, oh my goodness, you know, I can mess up my child.

Eloise Rickman 15:26

This is in my power to do whilst also That’s right. Providing so little financial, economic, structural, emotional support for new families. And so I think we’re in this perfect storm where parents, especially parents who are maybe starting to get more curious about like, can I break some of the patterns maybe that I was raised with? How do I raise my children in a different way? I think this is really positive, but I think the flip side is that we can become, you know, be really cruel to ourselves, I think as parents as well, and really beat ourselves. Yes. And what I have really tried to do in the book is to show that yes, you know, parenting is a part of this. You know, as parents, we can all too easily become our parent, our children’s first bullies. I don’t think any one of us wants to do that, but many of us have seen it firsthand.

Adrienne Miller 16:18

Yeah.  That’s only a small part of it. You know, I only have one child which talks about parenting and so many others, which talk about the real kind of societal, structural impact. And I think that where children’s rights are not being met, where children are not being supported, often those, those policies mean that their parents families are not being supported either. You know, when we look at parental leave, when we look at childcare, um, when we look at the education system, you know, this is not a kind of, often parents win, children lose. It’s often sort of, everyone is losing and everyone is feeling unhappy and ground out and kind of disconnected from one another.

Adrienne Miller 16:56

I think that really speaks to how all, how all these systems are so integrated. And as you said, once you start to learn about racism, environmentalism, indigenous race, you realize it’s all connected. It’s all about power and oppression and these systems that really need to change. And so you have, on the one hand all the things we can do individually, like, you know, you know, less consumerism, let’s say for environmentalism, but then you also need the entire system to change where you have these massive corporations that need to change, or you have these policies that need to change. So things that need to be done on a systemic macro level. And, and I think where we get overwhelmed, of course, is on the micro level with, okay, here are all the things that I need to do. And I have this pressure, as you said, without acknowledging the macro that needs to go on.

Adrienne Miller 17:49

And so I just wanna acknowledge that when we talk about here are the things we can know as adults, that’s great. And also acknowledge that you are doing massive work without the support systems in place from your government, from society. And so, take for example, we live in a society where, um, consumerism and rushing and keeping up with trends, keeping up with the Joneses, these are all natural ways of living that is just kind of status quo. We’re all running from one things to next. We are putting our kids in so many activities, we are financially stressed out. Our wages don’t match the cost of living. And so how does one even begin to be really introspective and have a lot of time to think about this with our kids and take the time to be mindful and nurture those relationships. ’cause I think from so many of us, it’s, it’s getting from one day to the next.

Adrienne Miller 19:02

It’s getting from one activity to the next, from school, drop off to the next thing. And like, I struggle and we unschool, we don’t have a plan and curriculum and a set of activities. And we spend so much of our time talking, talking to our kids, having these common conversations, regulating co-regulating. And it’s still so, so hard and takes so much energy and so much, um, just wherewithal to be able to do that. So the next thing I wanted to talk about was, let’s use some examples maybe. ’cause I think we talk about these things in abstract, but for parents who are like, well, how does that work with bedtime? How does that work with brushing teeth? How does that work with buckling my kid up in the car seat? Who doesn’t want to go? Whatever. So I’m just, I’m just gonna start with, um, let’s say, the question I tend to ask myself is, can we afford this mentally, financially, emotionally?

Adrienne Miller 20:08

Can we afford this? So for brushing teeth, can we afford to pay for dental surgery? Can my kids afford to go through cavities, dental pain, um, things that are very consequential in the long term and have lasting impact? No, we can’t. So it’s not really up for discussion. Now we do as much as we can to watch fun, you know, teeth brushing videos or do it respectfully or whatever. Same with, um, let’s say sunscreen. Can my kids afford to get skin cancer? No, absolutely not. That’s a non-negotiable. So there are those things that are non-negotiable. But I think what really helps is to take a look at the things that really are non-negotiable and the things that really are so inconsequential. I think starting there is really important. And then being able to have that conversation with you of yourself about why, why can’t my kid wear her Halloween costume when we go to the store today?

Adrienne Miller 21:18

Why can’t my kid not eat at the dinner table? Why can’t my kid be barefoot in this certain area? Like, I think start going down that road of why exactly does this matter so much? Why does it have to be this way? Is this a societal norm that we just don’t even know why we do it? We’ve just been doing it forever, forever. Or is this something that is triggering to me and why is it triggering it? Why is it triggering something inside of me? And so taking that time and so before, sorry, I am gonna let you talk at some point but before we get there, it’s, it’s taking a look at the why, breaking that down. And then to do that, I’ve had to scale back in my life with, um, purchases, with activities, with any number of things that were keeping me from a place to have that time to reflect, to be introspective, to actually have the emotional capacity to deal with that.

Adrienne Miller 22:27

So that’s another thing I think that we can audit in our lives is Joe and I are so careful about our finances because it really determines, you know, the time that we’re working to make that money for what, um, and so taking an audit of your life and really looking at those things like lavish Christmas decorations or Halloween, and what are all the things that we can really scale back on time-wise, money-wise, um, activity-wise, whatever, to be able to have a slower, more mindful, more intentional atmosphere, parenting discussions, mindset to be able to then to tackle these things.

Eloise Rickman 23:24

Yeah. I think there are like so many interesting threads to draw out from that. I think like, again, this is why for me, I found having a, a kind of looking at things through a lens of children’s rights as a parent. But also my writing has been really useful. So the UN convention on the rights of a Child Yes. Came about in the late 1980s. Every country in the world has signed up to it apart from the us.

Adrienne Miller 23:53

Take a look by the way, after this episode, because I think most people don’t even know that that exists. Or they might and don’t know about anything in it. It’s fascinating. So continue.

Eloise Rickman 24:04

For years, you know, years into being a parent, you know, I’m sure. If someone had said to me, you know, do you know that there is a children’s rights document out there? I would’ve been like, yes. I don’t think I would’ve been able to tell you any of the rights on it, apart from I could probably have guessed a few, you know, like Right to life or Right, sure. Because your religion. But like, I would’ve really struggled which is shocking, especially as I do live in a country that has signed up to it. You know, this is something that everyone’s spending time with children really needs to be educated in. But what I have found really useful about it is it actually provides quite a decent framework for trying to think through some of these decisions. So for example, in terms of things like brushing teeth, you know?

Eloise Rickman 24:47

And it is codified in children’s rights documents. Children absolutely have a right to be involved in decisions which affect them. So that’s everything from Mm-Hmm. , you know, which parent do I want to live with, potentially after separation? Two things. Like, you know, what food do I want to eat? What clothes do I want to wear? So it affects every single level of their lives from day to day to big decisions. So you might say, you know, well, brushing teeth, that is something they need to be involved in to make decisions in, but children also have a right to the best possible health. Mm-Hmm. So it’s about mm-Hmm. Trying to figure out, you know, how do we weigh these things up? And I think actually for a language of rights, it’s quite useful as children get a little bit older in terms of talking to them about how we can make these decisions together as a family.

Eloise Rickman 25:31

In terms of justifying. Okay. Well, for our family, toothbrushing is a non-negotiable. This is why, you know, as your parent, I have a duty to help you enjoy your right to the best possible health. On the flip side of that, you might actually look at, you know, children’s emotional, mental wellbeing. You know, I know there are some families out there potentially with children who are neuro divergent, who really, really struggle with a sensory feeling of brushing teeth. It might be that actually on some days you’re like, this is a battle, which we are just not gonna fight today because it’s just, you know, you’ve already used up too many spoons, it’s not gonna work for you. We’re making that conscious decision. So I think it’s nice because it provides quite a flexible framework. And it says in that, you know, parents are responsible for their children, we do make decisions, but that has to shift and change as children’s growing capacity evolves as they get older as well.

Eloise Rickman 26:22

And again, yes, the language is very vague. Who is, for one, who decides when children have the capacity to make certain decisions? And I think if we’re really open to that, to the fact that you look, you know, when you’re five, I might be making decisions around what kind of shows you’re allowed to watch, what food comes into our home when you brush your teeth. But actually, as a teenager, you know, those decisions are gonna look quite radically different in terms of who gets a choice. So I think that is a useful starting point. And even if you live in the US and your country hasn’t codified it, it’s fine. You can still use it, still cover, you can still use it. So I think it’s a, it’s a kind of useful thing to think about because I think it takes away from the sort of usual parenting discussions that we have, um, which is often geared around like, you know, how do we get our children to do things?

Eloise Rickman 25:31

How do we think about, you know, convincing children maybe without using words like yes or no, or declarative language. Right. It moves it into a look, you know, practically what rights do our children have and how can we talk about that? And I think especially as children get older, one of the best things that I have done as a parent, and this is like, I don’t, I feel like I don’t have very many parenting tips, but this is definitely one of them, is to talk to my daughter about power and to talk to her about adults. Yes. And to talk to her about children’s rights. And I always talk about this, but I say, you know, often now my daughter will say to me, stop, you know, you are using your power over me. Or she said, you are being really adultist. Or the other day she said to me something like, she’s been, she’s been reading my book.

Eloise Rickman 27:59

And she was like, mom, in your book you talk about the right to body autonomy. She’s like, oh, you just writing this? Do you really believe in it? It’s really stopping in my tracks, you know? Oh my goodness. Like, you are really calling me out here. But it is so useful because every single time it just stops me. And often I will reflect and go, you know what? You are absolutely like, yeah, you are. Right. Let’s, let’s take it back. I apologize, let’s start again. But then sometimes I will say, okay, I hear that you are really feeling like that. And as you will also know, as you are talking about children’s rights to me, you also have a right to, you know, X, y, z. This is why I’m saying this. And then she’ll kind of understand that, okay, yes, this is why you’ve said this to me.

Eloise Rickman 28:46

And it helps us, again, move from a kind of top down, I’ve said this to you, so you just need to do it to a kind of, that’s right. Now you understand my perspective. Let’s have a conversation about it. And again, I think it is, you know, treating children as though they have the capacity and competence to think about big issues like power. Like who holds that power, what justice looks like within a family setting. And again, all of this stuff is quite hard, but what I like about that is it doesn’t require those kind of hours of introspection from us as a parent around like, oh, was I overstepping the mark there? Was I not? Because I think if we have a family culture, which is encouraging of dissent, and which really allows our children to say no to us.  And to push back and to kind of resist. Then for me, you know, it feels like, you know, click here for my one time saving hack as a parent, because that does feel like one, because I don’t need to do the introspection if she is in that moment. But one saying to me, stop, I don’t like this. And…

Adrienne Miller 29:49

That’s, well then it really, oh, sorry. Oh, sorry. Finish.

Eloise Rickman 29:52

No, I was just gonna, and that’s not to say, but it’s not useful to do that introspection. Of course it is. But I think we can also share some of that responsibility with our children in terms of just as I would if I felt my partner was doing something sexist or just, you know, if I had a friend make a racist comment or something, you know, you would step in and you would call that person out, you know, respectfully. But you would step in. And I think we are often very good at, you know, within our own minds or between each other as, as adults, having these conversations about like, oh, how to be gentle, respectful parents. But then when our kids are actually the one saying to us, well, hang on, you’re not being very respectful. We’re like, whoa, there, you know, we’re the ones who are allowed to make that decision, not you.

Adrienne Miller 30:39

I know. Well, I talk about that all the time because we often hear that parents, that parents want to raise confidence. Children, children, they want to raise leaders, they want to, they don’t want sheep who follow, they want to raise critical thinkers. They want to raise kids who stand up for themselves and to bullies or whatever. And at home, is that the environment that we’re providing? Because are they allowed to talk back? Are they allowed to stand up for themselves against you that, you know, quote unquote bully? Are they allowed to be thinking critically against the things that you say? And I think so often that’s just not the case. Um, and we look at it as this thing of, oh, that’s the outside world that our kids need to stand up for themselves against. Or they’re gonna be bullies in the outside world.

Adrienne Miller 31:30

But yeah, having that introspection of what is my environment at home? Am I against, you know, people being policed or me being policed outside? And then in the home I go in, use all those same policing tactics and that environment at home. And I do wanna bring up the distinction between permissive parenting and what we’re talking about here, because I think that’s another, um, another narrative that gets thrown in here as well. I don’t want my kid just dictating what’s going on, and I am going to permit anything and everything. So can you talk about that distinction a little bit? ’cause I think we see so much, um, you know, gentle parenting, conscious parenting, all of that is really big now. And sometime the pendulum swings too far.

Eloise Rickman 32:24

Yeah. I completely agree. And I think, you know, when we think about, you know, taking a step back, what kind of society do we want to live in? I think this is a really important question for parenting because it’s such a political decision, even though it’s not often seen as one. It really is. And you know, I think for so many of us, especially people who are maybe more naturally inclined to think about things like social justice, I think so many of us want to live in community with other people you know, we really appreciate the impact that we have on other people. We try to, anyway and yet then that can often lead to sometimes a situation where actually we are not ever feeling comfortable talking to our children and saying no, or stepping in or making decisions for our own wellbeing versus maybe the family wellbeing or our children’s wellbeing.

Eloise Rickman 33:17

And so I think you absolutely, you know, you’re right to make that distinction. It’s something I get asked a lot, well, does this, you know, does mean children rule roost? Is these children in charge? I think, again, when we’re thinking about power, I don’t think it would be a healthy or respectful relationship either if suddenly children had all the power just as like you know, I don’t think that women need to be, you know, have women supremacy and start oppressing men. Like that wouldn’t be cool either. I think it’s about trying to figure out, you know, respectfully ways to be with each other. But I think, I think sometimes the idea of kind of permissive parenting can be a bit of a straw man, but equally, I have a couple of times seen it in practice, and I don’t think it’s actually helpful to children.

Eloise Rickman 32:24

In fact, I would say, you know, you could make some arguments that actually it goes against children’s rights to learn what it is to live respectfully with society, you know, in community with other people. You know, children do have a right to be parented and to be educated in a way which helps ’em live. You know, I can’t remember exactly the language, but, you know, to be tolerant of other people, to be supportive of other people. And I think we do our children a disservice if we’re like, you are the only person whose needs matter. Yes, of course. Don’t need to take other people’s feelings into account. We don’t need to take, you know, maybe we are not modeling that ourselves either as caregivers. And I think it’s really easy, especially if you are someone who has, maybe when you are child was a baby, you know, you are very attachment parenting.

Eloise Rickman 34:51

You were very, very responsive which I certainly was with my daughter as well. So I, I really, me too. And I think there is, you know, that gradual learning process, um, you know, when it talks about like a good enough parent of solely allowing your child to wait longer, you know, sometimes you do have to say, not now, gimme five minutes. I’m just in the middle of doing something. And gradually, you know, stretching your child’s tolerance to, you know, give up some of their own needs and desires to think about actually what works for everyone else too. And I think in both work really well together, you know, if your needs tend to be respected. If your voice tends to be heard, I think it’s probably supportive of you then being able to hear other people’s needs, being able to listen to what other people are desiring too. But when I think about children’s rights and children’s liberation, I don’t see it as, you know, I’m advocating for a sort of a child’s supremacy where parents need.

Eloise Rickman 35:52

And again, on the flip side, I actually think when our children’s needs are met, it often means that our needs are being met too as parents, right? Sometimes I think sometimes we can still find ourselves in situations again, maybe especially as mothers, where we are not being supported and we don’t feel that we can advocate for ourselves. And I think especially, you know, I am the mother of a daughter, so Mm-Hmm. when I am parenting her, I also think about, you know, how would I like her to feel as she grows older? You know, can she yes. Feel like she can advocate for her needs? I’ve also had interesting conversations with mothers of boys who are saying, you know, especially, you know, when their children are perhaps being aggressive or violent and saying, I don’t feel like I can normalize this because they’re boys. Right. Although there is a tendency in some circles to not want to say no or to want to explain everything away. You know, at what point do we then say, but actually it’s not cool for you to like, Mm-Hmm, whack me or whack your sister. 

Eloise Rickman 37:00

You know, it’s such a fine line between children being children and just figuring things out. And, you know, I strongly believe that there are kind of no bad kids. You know, people I think can be very punitive of children who are just trying to being children.

Eloise Rickman 37:17

Equally, as children get older, what kind of values are we imbuing? Are we raising children who perhaps are not so, you know, in tune with other people’s needs? It’s a really difficult question. 

Adrienne Miller 37:33

But I think it’s one worth, well, yeah, let’s speak to that because I know Dr. Becky, Good Inside talks about, and Dr. Shefali, they talk about boundaries and they talk about that firmness, and they talk about how their, their parenting is certainly not gentle in the sense that we’re always calm and I don’t need to be firm and, you know, whatever. They talk very much about how kids don’t need to be a hundred percent self-autonomous. They actually do need that strong, grounded adult presence. And the way I look at it is with boundaries. So I think a lot of times we, one, especially as women, but then two, anyone who’s grown up in kind a toxic, toxic household like I did, you grow up, you grow up having, having no boundaries, not understanding what boundaries are, uh, not having your voice heard at all.

Adrienne Miller 38:33

And so you come into parenting one of two ways. I feel like either you go into hyper control and you kind of replicate what happened to you where, because you grew up with chaos, you need to heavily control, or because you grew up being control, you need to control, or you kind of go the opposite way. And that’s really what happened when my oldest Linus was first born. So, um, my first child was adopted away from me as a very traumatic experience. And so by the time I had Linus, it was, oh, this baby’s not ever getting taken away from me, and I’m gonna do everything for this child, much to the detriment of my maternal health. And it was, I’m never putting him down. I have these memories of bouncing on the yoga ball with him, with the sun rising, like having not gone to sleep over and over and over again.

Adrienne Miller 39:28

And it was very much this idea that, I think you referenced at the beginning that parenting is tantamount to set self-sacrifice. And it’s just not the case because one, we can’t show up best for our kids if we don’t have boundaries and if our needs aren’t being met. And two, we deserve that just for existing as humans, like parenting or not. I deserve to have my needs met. This isn’t so that I can be a better mom. Like, I also just deserve that as an individual, as do they. Um, and so if you look at it in that way, I’ll use bedtime as an example. Um, so we don’t have strict rules around bedtime, but you cannot infringe on other people’s rights. So if my son is gonna stay up, he doesn’t have the right to keep the rest of us from sleeping, which is our right.

Adrienne Miller 40:26

So if you look at it that way, that they’re able to make, now again, he’s almost 11, so this is not the same for my, you know, 5-year-old, but whose rights are being infringed upon. And if they are meeting their needs and tending to their rights that they have, as you mentioned, that UN convention, that those are not luxuries, those are rights, human fundamental rights. So if they’re tending to those without it infringing on you know, his sister, he can be aggressive. Can he go into her personal bubble and infringe on her rights of safety or bodily autonomy? No. So that’s really where I find it to be a really helpful guiding north star to look at, is are they able to exercise those rights without infringing on someone else’s? And we can look at that with, you know, gay marriage. We can look at that with any other rights that people are talking about.

Adrienne Miller 41:30

If it’s not infringing on yours, it really isn’t for you to say, so if I’m doing something for my body, my health, my gender expression, my orientation, and it’s not infringing on your right to exist and have your own rights, then this really doesn’t need to be a discussion. So, I don’t know, that’s another kind of, I’m not gonna say hack, but a way that I look at it to guide me in, okay, where is this decision here? So yeah, like you were saying, hitting bedtime, screen time, any of those things. Um, and then, yeah. And then additionally I just wanted to end on boundaries. ’cause I think once we won, learn what boundaries are, ’cause I think all of us are going into our forties learning about boundaries for the first time and then taking that time to heal ourselves, our own inner child, because that will determine so much of how we treat our kids and how we see our kids.

Adrienne Miller 42:40

And really tending to our own inner child and what we needed growing up. Because whether people admitted or not, it is my very strong belief that we all have childhood trauma. It might not all look the same, but I think there were all times where we weren’t listened to where we were humiliated, where we were shamed publicly or privately where we were. Um, our consent wasn’t honored. Like we all have at least one experience of that happening. I would say, especially as women or you know, trans people, people who are a part of a marginalized group. We all have that experience of trauma, of systemic oppression, of abuse, what have you. And so that needs to be healed because it will come out in how we behave and how we treat other people and how we approach relationships. And especially with kids. I really like that you mentioned that we all have the experience of being a child.

Adrienne Miller 43:42

We might not all be gay, we might not all be black, but we have all been a child, which means that we have that scope of understanding. We can remember what it was like when we weren’t listened to. We can remember, we can put ourselves back in those shoes and those memories of, Hey, that felt so terrible when my body was violated that way. Or where my voice didn’t matter and I was screaming at the top of my lungs for what I needed and no one cared or I was neglected, or whatever. So is there anything you wanna finish on? You have an audience of listeners of parents mostly homeschoolers, but if the things that you just feel like you’re saying on repeat and the things that you just really wish every parent understood, some last minute advice or steps, please, please, please share.

Eloise Rickman 44:33

Well, I think, you know, that’s such a, a good point to end on really that like we all can tap into that feeling, that memory. And that sometimes can feel quite painful. You know, this is, I think mm-Hmm, why it’s such a difficult discussion to have with people when you talk about autism. Because some people like you, will immediately be like, oh yes, I experienced in my c I’m in my childhood. I can name it all various different sources. But for some people, you know, they’ll be like, well, my childhood was fine, my childhood was nice. I enjoyed school. My parents were kind, I had a nice point of community. And I think it can be quite difficult to dig down and be like, but actually even within that, there probably were lots of places where even if you weren’t actively having a bad time, you were not involved in making decisions or you weren’t listened to.

Eloise Rickman 45:20

Or you weren’t taken seriously. You know, I think even growing up in a culture which sees children as less than, you know, we use words. It’s like, oh, stop being so childish. You’re being injured. Yes. On the flip side, if something is good, if a child is doing what we’d like them to do, we’re like, oh, you’re so mature. That was really grown up, well done. You know? That was a really like grownup thing that you did there. So I think children exist in this space where they’re, you know, soaking in these messages from everywhere that like, they are not as good as adults. You know, adulthood is where it’s really at. Yeah. And I think we can try, you know, if you are listening to this, to tap into that a little bit and be real advocates for our children. And I think that can show up in so many ways.

Eloise Rickman 46:06

And for me, I find that really reassuring in that I don’t have to be a perfect parent. You know, I also home educate my daughter, but something I say a lot to parents who are like, you know, they don’t home educate either ’cause they don’t want to or ’cause they can’t, they’re like, oh, it’s so difficult ’cause my child is going into a setting where, you know, maybe their rights are not always being met or they’re not being listened to. Yeah. Or maybe there are kind of punitive behavior measures, but you can be that person on your child’s side who is not just gonna justify that unfair treatment or when it comes around to, you know, election time and your child’s like, why can’t I vote to not be like, oh, because you don’t understand yet or because you’re not old enough. To be like, because we live in a really unfair system.

Eloise Rickman 46:50

I wish your voice could be heard. Let’s discuss as a family. If you could vote, who could you vote for? And we’ll take that into account when it comes to our votes as adults. Mm mm-Hmm. when it comes to your child coming home saying, oh, you know, I was given a detention. Rather than being like, oh, well I’m gonna add punishment onto that. Mm-Hmm. . Like, that’s really unfair that that happened to you. Do you want to talk to me about it? Sometimes school is really not set up in a fair way. You know, I’m here if you ever want to chat and so on. And it doesn’t necessarily change the world, but I think it makes our children feel, I guess a bit less gaslit because we do this stuff to our kids, you know, we punish them or we shame them, or we put them in competition with each other, or we deny them the ability to participate in certain areas of life. But we say to ’em, oh, it’s for your own good. This is all for you know, we do this. I know better.

Eloise Rickman 47:45

Yeah. It feels so dishonest because so many of the things we do are for our own wellbeing.

Adrienne Miller 47:51

Our wellbeing.

Eloise Rickman 47:52

To protect our power as adults or, you know, as politicians to protect their own majorities. And I think just being honest with children, but like actually the world is not set up for children. It’s really unfair on your side. And we are gonna do something about it, you know, to bring it up at family gatherings, to write to our representatives about it. Even just talking about it on social media. You know, I bet that if everyone listening to this did a poll just for bare friends and families, and they were like, do you know what the word adult is means? Do you, can you name any children’s rights? Do you know what children’s rights are? What does the idea of like child liberation mean to you? I bet the responses would probably be quite star, you know? And just starting to have those conversations.

Eloise Rickman 48:39

This is really why I wrote the book. And in fact the subtitle is you know, this is why we need to have a conversation about it. I think this is how we change things and I think I feel quite hopeful in some ways. You know, quite hard to be hopeful about the state of children’s rights at the moment, especially with everything that’s happening, you know, in Palestine and in Congo and in Japan. Oh gosh. Yeah. You know, it’s just far afield, you know, close to home. We have huge child poverty issues here in the UK. The climate crisis, which looming large, you know, huge child anxiety rates. Yes. It’s, it’s quite hard sometimes to feel optimistic, but then actually when I look at how the narrative around parenting has changed in the last few decades towards being more respectful towards thinking more about our children.

Eloise Rickman 49:30

I do have some hope. I think we are more open. I think, you know, if we look at just people’s understandings maybe of social justice in general, I think a lot of people have learn a lot in the last decade when it comes to thinking about things like structural racism, colonialism oppression. Yeah. And I think hopefully this allows more people to see that children are a part of that, and that children really fit into that. Yeah. And, um, yeah, you know, I’m, so, I, I still hold onto that little bit of kind of that glimmer Good, good excitement , because we really need everyone. And again, like you don’t have to just start with climate crisis activism. You don’t need to be perfect. Like, I’m not a perfect parent. I can be really grouchy as a parent. I can be quite strict if I’m feeling stressed that can veer into trying to control things. You know, but I’m still here. I’ve written a book about this stuff. You know, you don’t have to be perfect to just show up and have conversations and to talk about it. And I think your kids will, will really thank you for it as well.

Adrienne Miller 50:39

Well, there’s absolutely room for imperfect activism. For sure, for sure and the other thing I was gonna say was, I am, I’m usually quite cynical, but I will say I am so hopeful because our generation, we talk openly about therapy. We actually go to therapy. We have, you know, millions of books about this new type of parenting. We have cycle breakers, which I just don’t think really existed nearly as much as they do. People are getting into social activism much more than they ever have. People are voting more like it. So I just have a lot of hope for this. I think we, we are more cognizant of these things going on. We are doing, I think George Floyd and a lot of awful things really woke us up. Many of us were having these conversations, social media too. We’re able to get information in these narratives and books like yours from so many sources now, and hear people talk about it, and share their experience.

Adrienne Miller 51:47

We talk about, you know, toxic parenting, all these things, these conversations that were not happening, um, when we were growing up. So I’m super hopeful for that. And then two, any time a parent parents differently, re parents themselves heals themselves to break these cycles, it really is changing the world because you’re creating this entire new generation of kids who feel like their voice matters, who are not getting bullied, bullied at home, who, you know, just have such a more healthy relationship with themselves. You have people slowing down. You have people quitting their nine to fives and realizing that this, you know, soul draining, rat race life is not what they want. We’re seeing better work life balance. Like all these changes are happening. So I’m really hopeful in that way, especially for people like you doing all this work and spreading your message and, and helping us all be more conscious and mindful of how we parent and how we show up for our kids.

Adrienne Miller 52:56

So I really, really appreciate you for that. And um, the last thing I wanted to end on was, I think so much of what unschooling has done for us, and again, I will always acknowledge that it is not accessible to everyone as it should be. But what it has really allowed us to do, one is to unpack all these preconceived notions. So one of those being that, uh, we need to have a top down hierarchical form of parenting. And kids, you know, their job is to grow up and be adults, but actually their only job is to be a child, as the quote is that I see all over the internet. Um, two, it allows us to just have the time and space and emotional capacity to have those very discussions that you were just talking about. Because in a rushed, hurried, anxious society, those discussions aren’t happening.

Adrienne Miller 53:58

We’re not mindful. We don’t have the emotional capacity to be able to be like, well, why do I have this rule? Oh yeah, let’s talk about it as a family. All those things that you mentioned requires emotional capacity, it requires time, mindfulness. And so anything we can do to really lead, even if you’re not unschooling, even if you’re not homeschooling, but anything you can do to really embrace this, like minimal calendar, this life of regulating and self-care and being able to prioritize the mental and emotional health as much as possible and get away from that society of consumption and, um, living for the weekend. And, you know, the rat race, I think helps us to be better parents. It helps us to be more mindful for ourselves. All the things that then lead to the kind of world that you and I talked about that we want to live in with community, that collective liberation.

Adrienne Miller 55:02

That’s the other thing I was gonna mention, sorry, is that child liberation is so much a part of that collective that we are not free until we’re all free. And I think children are such a big part of that because it’s not just about you, you know, racism and feminism and trans rights. When we dig down and look at children who are a massive demographic, the most marginalized graphic in our demographic in our world, I would say that’s the collective liberation. Because if all children are treated like they have a voice, like they matter, like we honor their consent, black, brown, trans, queer, whatever, then it just, you know, exponentially grows into these bigger systems, into adulthood, into how we vote, into how we create policy, all those things. So it really starts at home from day one.

Eloise Rickman 56:03

Definitely. And I think just to say, and, and it works both ways too, on the flip side, you know, just as what you were saying, you know, there is a privilege to being able to slow down, have those conversations. Mm-Hmm. I think if we care about children’s rights and we see ourselves as, okay, yes, I want to be like a child’s rights activist, I care about children’s separation. I has to go hand in hand with campaigning against poverty. You know, not just child Right. Poverty for everyone against structural racism, you know, all of these things, which put so much pressure on families, on parents, which really get in the way of that kind of, you know, capacity to be able to parent maybe as they would like to. Yeah. Yes. Which is not to say, you know, that you can’t be a good mindful parent if you are busy or if you don’t have high income, but, you know, this just means trying to remove as many barriers for all children to thrive, not just yes, rich white middle class kids who have

Eloise Rickman 57:02

A certain type of parents. You know, I really felt like, this is so important that if we care about children, we really have to care about all children. And, maybe a nice thing to end on, which is something I talk about in the conclusion of my book, is it’s helped me to think about it in terms of kind of widening circles. I talk about widening our circles of care. So maybe that inner circle is thinking about ourselves as children. And thinking about our children, if we are parents, the children, immediately in our lives, then, you know, maybe the next circle is thinking about the children directly within our community, the children who we interact with. Maybe that’s nieces, nephews, maybe that’s our children’s playmates. Maybe that’s people at the local school or in our church communities. Then the next one is thinking about children in our country, you know, more widely.

Eloise Rickman 57:09

So again, you know, thinking about how do we tackle things like child poverty? How do we campaign for better maternal leave? How do we think about, you know, changing the conversation around childcare, around education, then thinking about children who live in other places too. And I think, you know what the tragic, all the tragic things which have been unfolding Yes. Over the last year. Yep. Yep. There are so many to name. You know, I think especially what’s happening in Palestine has really opened so many people’s eyes to a fact that not all children have the same rights, and not all children’s lives seem to be valued the same way by people. And then the final circle is thinking about children who aren’t even alive yet, you know, future children and what kind of planet we are leaving to them in terms of a climate crisis.

Eloise Rickman 57:32

And these circles aren’t things that you kind of move through, you know, you don’t stop caring about one ’cause you’re caring about the other. I see as kind of ripples. You know, you, you start thinking about yourself, you start thinking about your child and these things, you know, then hopefully you start and it adds caring more and more about, you know, all of these different levels to a point where we can really hold all of these things in our minds. Actually, you know, all children are as deserving of life all children.Deserving of love and care and attention. And thinking about things like our own personal, like purchases for example, you know, again, people maybe are thinking about things like boycotting divestment. What does that look like? But also think what the products you buy, do you need to upgrade your iPhone? And what impact does that have on a child in Congo’s? Do you need to buy a new fast fashion t-shirt that you’ve just seen? What impact does that have on children who are making those clothes on children who live in places where those clothes get thrown away to when you have given them away or thrown them in the trash? Yeah. 

Adrienne Miller 59:38

So it feels like quite a lot to be like, ah, how there’s so much, yeah.

Eloise Rickman 59:39

Through the day. How do I save the world? But it’s not about that. I think it’s just holding in mind, you know, the little decisions we can, where we can make them the impact we can, you know, and we all have within our activism, different gifts. Some people are writers, some people like you are creative, create podcasts, create resources. Right. Some people are great at kind of direct action campaigning. Some people will create art. Which makes us envisage a better world. Some people make music, some people organize it in their communities. You know, there is really a role for everyone, I think, but it needs to be Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Not just myopically focused on children, but on creating a Better World for all of Us, which includes children.

Adrienne Miller 60:19

In there. Yeah. And really just about that awareness. That’s the first step. Right. In being mindful. Lastly, there’s a really good book called Fair of the Free Child. It’s by Akah Richards. So I just wanted to throw that out there too. I feel like I mention it every episode, but I really like throwing that book out there because I think so many people think this is for privileged people. Like this just isn’t attainable for me. Whether it’s homeschooling, whether it’s liberation, whatever. But she, she’s black, she raises black children. She talks about that very specifically and the, um, yeah, the role of privilege in that and, um, just how liberation really is for all. So I will throw that out there also. But yes, again, so Eloise Rickman your Mighty mother on Instagram and your book is called It’s Not Fair. And it’s, I think I was able to pre-order it. Yes. But yeah. Okay. So that’s exciting. So congratulations on that. Thank you so much for coming to talk to me about this.

Eloise Rickman 61:25

It’s now dark here. So we’ve gone from light to . Again, apologies for anyone who’s watching on YouTube who was seeing me in my ratty t-shirt. I love it. I’m not, you know, pushing a very consumer message on you. So there’s that

Adrienne Miller 61:40

With the brands. Yes. No, it’s okay. We’re very welcoming. We’re very transparent and authentic here. So that’s our community. Okay. Okay. Bye Eloise.