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Summary

Welcome back to the show! Today, I’m excited to introduce a special guest, Leah McDermott, known to many of you as @yournaturallearner on Instagram. Leah was one of the first voices in the unschooling community that I followed, and I’ve been looking forward to this conversation for a long time.

In this episode, Leah and I discuss our journeys from traditional educational systems to embracing a more natural, child-led approach to learning. We share a unique perspective on unschooling—not just as an alternative to homeschooling, but as a mindset, a lifestyle, and a complete paradigm shift in how we view education, learning, and childhood itself.

We delve into the challenges and rewards of moving away from rigid schooling structures, the profound realizations that come with choosing to unschool, and the transformative impact it has on both children and parents. We also address some tough topics, such as the restrictive nature of conventional education, the obstacles to making unschooling more accessible, and why it’s so important to rethink what learning truly means.

Join us as we explore the beautiful, sometimes challenging, but ultimately rewarding journey of raising curious, empowered learners in a world that often pushes for conformity. Whether you’re just beginning to question traditional schooling or are already well into the unschooling path, this episode is for you!

Follow Lead McDermott on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/yournaturallearner

FREE Unschooling Resources:
👉 Take the Quiz: What’s Your Homeschooling Superpower? https://thesereveries.com/quiz
👉 10 Simple Ways to Connect With Your Child https://thesereveries.com/10-simple-ways-to-connect-with-your-child
👉 Is Unschooling Right For Me? https://thesereveries.com/is-unschooling-right-for-me-guide

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Read the Transcript:

Adrienne Miller: 0:00

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the show. Today. I have a special guest. Her name is Leah McDermott. She is your natural learner on Instagram, and I’m so honored that you’re here. I have been looking forward to this for a very long time. You’re one of the first unschooling accounts that I followed, and you kind of approach it the same way I do in the sense that it is so much more than just school. It is very much a mindset. It is a paradigm, it is a lifestyle. It is just a complete overhaul of how we look at things, how we look at children, learning, education, school, all of it. It’s not just a type of homeschooling that we do.

Leah McDermott: 0:41

Oh, yeah, a hundred percent. It’s just as soon as you step into one thing, it’s like all the other windows and doors start opening and you realize how interconnected all of this is to our daily lives. Yeah

Adrienne Miller: 0:00

That’s right. Yeah, for sure. How did you get into this, by the way? I don’t really know your backstory.

Leah McDermott: 0:55

Yeah, so I actually was, I’ve, I’ve kind of come full circle in education and kind of touched all the little pieces. So it’s a fun journey to share. I started in public school like most of us as a child. And then,, my father was in the military, so we moved a lot. So out of necessity, more than anything, my parents chose to start homeschooling when I was in fourth grade, just because of how often we were moving. And back then it wasn’t legal in every state. If it was, there was a lot of regulations. you know, it wasn’t very common. There weren’t a lot of people doing it. If they were, it was very heavily within like religious communities only. and so while I was homeschooled for the rest of my formative years, it was very, very rigid and strict and okay.

Leah McDermott: 1:45

Homeschooling. It was school at home. There was no distinction. There were tests and quizzes, and we had a homeschool classroom. So literally it was almost like a harder version of school because it was so much more focused and, and structured. And then I went to college to be a teacher. And I started teaching. I got two master’s degrees in education. I went all in on educ and teaching. And I started teaching in, the more rural side of a district in a major city. Okay. And at first I worked with kindergartners is where I first got put. So I was working with all of these little kids that were, they believed in magic and they were creative, and they had questions and they wanted to learn, and they wanted to do things. And so I taught there for a while, and then the district kind of shook things up.

Leah McDermott: 2:35

And I got moved from kindergarten to fifth grade. And that was my first really big eye-opening moment as an educator, because while those kindergartners were bright and curious and excited, the fifth graders, all of the light and the spark was gone. They didn’t wanna read, they didn’t wanna write, they didn’t want to learn. They didn’t want to be there. And it was, was just like a slap in the face going from one thing to the other. I was, it was like, what, what have we done? What, four years? What happened? Yeah. What did we do to them? And I made it my mission in the fifth grade, you know, for the years I was there to make it as fun and joyous and fight back against the testing the administration. But through that time that for me, it was like, this is not enough. I can’t be a part of this system.

Leah McDermott: 3:23

I’m causing harm being here. So I was trying to reconcile with that. And also just, it never felt like enough. I might have 30 kids here, but for me personally, that wasn’t enough of an impact, that that didn’t ripple enough. And then I got pregnant with my first child who’s 13 now, and I knew that was my second awakening moment. I will never put him in this. So I have to do something different. So I left the classroom and I just was a stay-at-home mom for a little while. And just because I was bored, then I started sharing like some of the things I was doing, you know, as he got a little bit older. And then people started asking about it. So I started writing.  Well, and it also kind of hit me when he hit like the preschool age, all of those fears come up like, well, now it’s time to teach him things.

Leah McDermott: 4:11

Right. Like, I wasn’t really full on unschooling yet. And I was like, okay, well I’m gonna homeschool him then. So I started looking for curriculum and everything I found was just school at home. Yeah. And like, this isn’t, this, isn’t it. He’s already learning and exploring. Like, I just want something a little more structure maybe, is what I felt at the time that I needed. And then I remembered I had a master’s degree in curriculum writing, so it’s like, oh yeah, I could probably do that. So I started writing curriculum, which is now the year natural learner curriculum. So we’ve got that through, um, elementary years, which just sort of took me on my own journey with, you know, my children have taught me more than anything, obviously, and how, how the unburdened human brain gets to learn as they just explore life.

Leah McDermott: 5:01

And when there’s no pressure and there’s no force, what amazing things get to happen. And so through my children and then through my work for about 10 years, I just, you know, helped homeschooling families through workshops and courses. And then three years ago we started Bridge Academy, which is my private school for homeschoolers and unschoolers. And that mostly, it had always kind of been an idea, but it came out of the need personally. We lived in a state where it was very flexible. There were no regulations for homeschoolers other than just informing them you were doing it. And we moved to a state where there was suddenly all these restrictions and regulations. And it really hit me how hard that is for so many parents to who want this life, this choice, and are burdened by pro the force of proof that they have to have for the state. And that can be such a hindrance, both like physically and then emotionally and mentally to overcome. And so we started Bridge Academy to kind of act as that bridge between, between the, you know, still very structured rigid type of traditional learning that our society and government kind of requires with that ultimately free and natural life lifestyle of unschooling that parents can now exist in freely while also having that proof. 

Adrienne Miller: 6:21

Wow. That’s amazing. Leah, I feel like I’m talking to myself. Yeah. So I , I went to French Catholic school and I grew up, um, in a very rigid Mormon household. And so I came from that rigidity, and then I got my teaching degree, and then I got my master’s in education and I taught kindergarten, and then I got sh I know , and then I got shoved into grade seven. And same thing, it was just that like beginning to, wow. Seven years later, eight years later. Yeah. Like what has happened? I introduced like, social justice into the curriculum for grade seven and got in so much trouble. Yeah but anyhow, so it’s like, it’s so funny how you literally, same story. And then I had my son and then he was three. And I was like, wait, no, I’m not doing this.

Adrienne Miller: 7:13

And same thing, I kind of freaked out a little bit. ’cause around the age of five you’re like, okay, well now real learning has to start, right? Like, they’re not just kids anymore. I think everyone’s okay with the idea of homeschooling littles. And then they’re like, well, at some point you have to switch over to something. And so, same thing I was looking for curriculum and I, I started using exploring nature with children. ’cause I was like, oh, well, that I’m okay with it’s nature, like dah dah, dah, dah. But even that, the pressure started mounting where I was like, oh, what week are we on? Oh, we missed mushroom week. Like, what am I gonna do? And it kind of like came around where I was like, I can’t remember what it was. It must’ve been, I must’ve been filming them doing something. And then them just being like, mom, what?

Adrienne Miller: 8:00

Why are we doing this? And then, you know, just one of those moments happened where you’re just like, I don’t know. I, why, why are we doing this ? I dunno what is happening. And so, yeah. So essentially, I always say like, I’ve been home unschooling from the day my son was born because I literally haven’t done anything different. Nothing started in September. Nothing really started at the age of five. Nothing changed. We’ve parented the same, we’ve observed them the same, we’ve supported them the same. We have, like, it’s just so interesting how once you unpack that of what is magically happening at the age of five, I know you talk about that a lot on Instagram. What is magically happening from September to June and what is ending in June? Because it’s not like at the end of June, their brain suddenly turns off. It’s not like they now live in a cave and they stop exploring and they stop being curious or stop asking questions like, have you been around a child? All they do is ask questions. Yeah. So yeah, I find that that, anyway, you and I live very parallel lives. Yeah.

Leah McDermott: 9:10

And that’s, you know, that’s such a good point because now, and, and your point to that people think this is so something. It’s, it’s acceptable for little kids. And then once they’re older, like you have to force them down this path for some reason. And really, my oldest is now 13, so all of his friends are teenagers and they’re in high school. And our house just over the summer kind of just became, you know, the defacto place where they all wanted, which I don’t think is a coincidence that this is the way we choose to live. That people are, you know, children are naturally drawn to that. But I end up seeing the exact opposite where they think that brains turn on in September and off in June. And I see the opposite. Once school is out and they get to be in charge of their time and in charge of what they do, and they come here where we’re providing opportunities, that’s when they have questions again, and they’re curious again, and they’re creative again. And then that gets shut off when they have to go back. And my middle child, we were driving somewhere early the other morning and kids were trudging to school, and he’s like, mom, it looks like the walking dead. Like, they all just look like zombies, just like dragging their feet to school. It’s so sad. And I was like, I know. It’s like living in this weird little bubble. Yes. Strange.

Adrienne Miller: 10:22

Well, yeah, and let, let’s dig into that a little bit because I always make sure to talk about the accessibility of homeschooling and the lack thereof, to be honest. And how it isn’t always just a matter of, uh, uh, that’s probably the most common question and comment that you get, as do I, is well, not everyone can homeschool. Not everyone can afford to homeschool. So like, it’s a privilege, dah, dah, dah. I talk very much about how we have the privilege to make these sacrifices. For sure. I also talk about the number of families for whom it actually doesn’t matter if it’s accessible or not. They have life-threatening allergies. There’s severe bullying, there are disabilities, challenges, what have you, where the school system just is not an, it’s not an option for them. And yet, yeah. And yet you have all these people who are forced to make it work because they have to.

Adrienne Miller: 11:18

It’s just not a choice. And so let’s talk about that balance or that nuance, I guess there is, because I look at it like if I knew that I was sending my kids into a home or environment that was abusive, would it be an option? So I talk a lot about how schools are oppressive and abusive, which I get a lot of backlash for because there are teachers doing amazing things. You were one of them. I was one of them. There are schools and circumstances where school is better for that child than what they have at home. Absolutely. Those, the, the, those multiple truths can exist as I try and always bring up. But it just wouldn’t be, well, my kid has to go to this abusive home or this environment where I know they’re going to be, their consent will be violated daily. They will be just in these toxic red flag scenarios all day long. Would I do everything I could to keep them out of that? Or would I try and manage within that? I think for most of us, it would be the former. 

Adrienne Miller: 12:33

But we don’t look at school as abusive. Right. I, I don’t, that’s not a very common paradigm that’s not spoken of because so many people depend on it. So it’s such a touchy, sensitive subject. But when I look at what’s going on there, and I think, would I allow my child to have a friendship or relationship where, or be in an environment where that person was telling them when they could go to the bathroom, when they could eat, when they could talk, who they could talk to, who they had to sit by. Like all of those things you would never allow in a personal interpersonal relationship. 

Leah McDermott: 13:13

And as adults, we would never tolerate in a workplace. No. So that’s also very important. It’s very easy, it’s very easy to oppress children. I didn’t mean to cut you off if there was more. No, no, I think it’s, I very much appreciate you being willing to speak out because you know, I, I say yes to a lot of interviews. I talk to a lot of people, and I have to sometimes tamp down some of this conversation because it, you know, depending on where you are in your journey, you’re not ready to hear a lot of those things. And I totally understand that. And yes, you know, some people do need public school, et cetera, et cetera. But there also needs to be people who have seen a lot of these things like me, like you who are willing to say the big scary things that fuel change.

Leah McDermott: 13:58

And while one parent might not be at a place to hear the phrase, all schools are abusive, it might actually save other children’s lives. And I think it needs, needs to be saved. And with Bridge Academy, especially, I have conversations with parents, or my team has conversations with parents every day where it literally is life or death to pull their child out of school. So that’s not hyperbole, that’s not just, you know, people being extreme. It is true. There are guidance counselors that say to parents, your child is at risk of suicidal behavior if they do not get out of this environment. It absolutely is happening. And it’s happening more and more. I don’t know if you’ve seen the news this morning, literally, there was a shooting in a high school in Georgia about an hour ago. Like it is a crisis of epic proportion.

Leah McDermott: 13:45

So it does need to be discussed. And it’s not just, you know, we’re not anti teacher, we were teachers. This is Oh yeah, that’s right. Like, we want to help kids. That’s literally why we’re here. But you know, two things that I wrote down as you were talking to kind of address this. The first one is that, and I think this is most important to help recognize this like, cycle of abuse. It kind of goes back to what we were saying even in the very beginning. It’s not just about school. Like if we go back to the whole reason public schools were invented, it was to oppress people. It is to create workers, to make pe parents be able to go to work more easily so that their kids, because their kids are occupied, or that workers will be trained to work and give up their rights and take work home and only go to the bathroom when they’re told and only eat when they’re allotted the time to do.

Leah McDermott: 15:34

So. It’s, it is a cycle of abuse by the system. But also trauma isn’t always seen. You know, every trauma does not look like a car crash. A lot of trauma is silent. A lot of trauma is inside. And so many of us are walking around with educational trauma from our years in school. And, and a lot of times that even happens in a homeschool environment where it is very structured, very rigid, very, you know, force of proof. Um, and so even it doesn’t have to be that extreme scenario of my child is, could literally be harmed or die in a school environment to recognize that there’s still traumas that and Absolutely. And very much is likely still happening, even if it’s on an invisible level. And I think it’s almost a tactic of people who say, you know, you mentioned that you get a lot of backlash for saying these things, as do I, the larger my platform grows, the more I get backlash.

Leah McDermott: 16:42

But I think it’s very easy to say, well, some people still need that. And that’s true. But that doesn’t mean that it has to continue to exist and operate in an abusive, childish way. The future of public school can look amazing. It can be a place where children are welcomed and cared for and have access to food and shelter and safety during the day, but also provide open-ended learning. Learning that is chosen, learning that is meaningful with adults that love them and care about them. And we probably wouldn’t be in a parental crisis, a, a mental health crisis for our teens and a teacher shortage if those were the kinds of things we were promoting. Like this, the system is in a bit of a free fall. And I think a lot of people are trying to keep it going just for the sake of turning the wheel. But it is gonna take people being brave enough, not just being brave enough to take their kids out and say, we want something different, but also people being brave enough to stand up and say this, this is abuse, this isn’t okay. But there’s a, there’s a lot changing right now, which is scary, but exciting.

Adrienne Miller: 17:54

Yeah. Well, and I just wanted to say one. So I was never hit growing up at church, at school, or at home. How much abuse was there? Like constant, constant toxicity. So I definitely go to that where one, it doesn’t need to be extreme, as you said, we don’t need to see a shooting. We don’t need to wait until a kid is hit. Yeah, absolutely. I have so much trauma from growing up, things that are embedded into your DNA that you then do therapy forever that show up in your future relationships and your parenting. So this absolutely has long lasting effects that then affect generations after. Right. If you don’t heal that inner child, if you don’t heal that trauma and you continue that cycle, it has a ripple effect. This is not just, oh, it’s school. We’re fine. I went to school, I came out fine.

Adrienne Miller: 18:47

And yeah, that’s right. Kids are resilient. I hear that all the time. And I’m like, are they resilient? Or they, did they just learn? Did they just learn how to mask because that’s what I was doing, or, yeah? And I talk a lot too about, ambient abuse. So that ambient abuse that is just that feeling in that atmosphere that is there where you’re always walking on eggshells. There isn’t necessarily, you know, these episodes of hitting, but you don’t feel safe ever. You, can’t be yourself, you can’t be authentic. You can’t have your big emotions. You can’t say how you’re feeling. You can’t advocate for yourself. So that, that feeling I certainly felt at church, school and home all the time where, you know, when you walk into those doors and you’re, you’re covering, you’re masking, you are altering your behavior to parent please to a teacher please to people, please. And then you are 40 and realize that you don’t know how to set or maintain a boundary.

Leah McDermott: 19:45

You’ve just been a boss. Pleaser.

Adrienne Miller: 19:47

That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. So going back to that cycle, like this is very much, schools exist to keep capitalism going, to keep our western ideals of consumerism going to keep our society thrives on the rat race, the busyness, the consumption, the disconnection from ourselves, from our communities, from our families. Because it’s easier to control people that way. It’s easier if people’s heads are down and the only thing they can think about is working their three jobs to live paycheck to paycheck. They then don’t have time to question the system. They don’t have time to step away from the rat race. They don’t have time, energy, resources, uh, wherewithal to criticize anything. And so, the same way I look at, do you wanna pause ? That’s okay, keep going. I’ll mute myself for a second. Okay. Okay. Okay. The same way that I say that, you know, government, uh, corporations, the church, they’re all, they all deserve to be critiqued, to be held to high standards.

Adrienne Miller: 21:06

And school is no different. And you, you have an entire industry that is built on raising children for 30 hours a week, educating them. They absolutely have to be open to, and I don’t mean tearing them down. What I mean is you need to be held accountable for the environment that you’re providing for the, uh, consequences and effects that you’re having on children, on their mental health, on their emotional health. Um, so that just needs to be the case all the time. And it, it doesn’t matter if there are literal angels working in that building, which for sure there are, or, or good intentions. ’cause so many of us had the best of intentions. But could I meet the needs of 35 year olds at the same time ever? No, absolutely not. I couldn’t, they all, first of all, they all wanted their mom. Right?

Adrienne Miller: 22:05

That’s, every single one of them was coming to me and holding my hand and crying and melting down and hugging me. Like it was very much a maternal or caregiver relationship that they needed. Um, and so we have to be responsible for that. We have to be accountable for what’s happening there. Um, and as far as divesting from that, taking our kids out, ’cause that’s another slam I get all the time, is, oh, you’re just using your privilege to then remove yourself from the system, which leaves the system less equipped, less resourced, and worse off. So, you know, how dare you, how selfish. And then I always come back with, well, one, I’m not gonna use my kids as pawn, so I’m not putting them into this environment that I know is damaging to them to, like, I, I’m not willing to use them as a sacrifice for the greater good, which for one, I don’t believe it is anyway.

Adrienne Miller: 23:02

But even if that was the case, who am I to get to take a human life and go, well, you’re gonna stay in this horrible environment to make it better for them, for everyone else. And then the second point I always make is I did give over 10 years of my life to that system, to my own detriment and to the detriment of my kids, because I was coming home with nothing. I was exploited for my work. As we know, it’s a heavily woman dominated industry. There’s a lot of invisible labor going on. There’s a lot of exploitation going on of that unpaid labor. Why is that the answer to this problem? So for me, it’s always about, let’s think outside of those, well, this is just how it is. Let’s think outside of the, like, I, I think once when you’re always trying to manage within the system, within even, you know, within a two-party political system, like when you’re trying to operate in this box of, well, what else are we gonna do?

Adrienne Miller: 24:06

It’s too hard. It’s too unconventional, it’s too inconvenient. It’s almost always inconvenient to revolutionize any industry, right? And so that’s so much more of what I’m interested. And you have people creating these grassroots organizations for education, these co-ops, you have parents building their educational communities. Those are the kind of alternatives, right. That I heavily support. So it’s not, let’s take our kids outta school and completely ditch everyone because I don’t believe in that either. It’s where’s my local community? Where’s my broader online community? You know, there are people doing amazing alternative things that allow them to divest from that mainstream model and, and, you know, build something outside of that that’s more sustainable.

Leah McDermott: 24:55

Definitely. And I actually, I just had a, an interview a couple hours ago where we talked about this, like my vision for the future. And you know, of course there will always be space for people to create these, these communities, right? And I think as terrible of a time in history as it was, I think the pandemic period was ultimately the most enlightening moment that we could have had for this system, because all of a sudden everyone’s eyes were opened to what was really going on. And it’s one of those things that we can keep pretending we can cover our eyes and plug our ears and just keep pretending that it has to be there. Therefore, we have to leave it alone. And it can’t ever be better. And it can’t ever be changed

Adrienne Miller: 25:41

Or throw money at it. That’s all we gotta do is.

Leah McDermott: 25:43

Throw money. And, but all the money does is keep it going. It just turns it and turns it and ignores the fact that it is crumbling from within in so many ways. And if you just pause and look like some very small examples, the district that I live in currently is a very small, little like suburban area. Last year they were hiring 40 teachers, whereas 10 years ago, they might have had two openings because someone was retiring. And now 40 teachers are done, kids are done. The revolution I see in teenagers is amazing. They’re done being gaslit. They’re done being told every day, this is how you have to spend your time. This is good for you. You need this for your future. They see the reality in front of them. They know that what they’re being taught is useless, outdated, incorrect. They have access to the internet.

Leah McDermott: 26:38

They know it’s whitewashed. They know it’s wrong. They know it’s not true. And they know, they see their parents. They know that this isn’t gonna help them get a job. These aren’t skills. Or if this isn’t information that’s gonna be utilized. And, by being adults that are responsible, that’s our job as parents, as teachers, as community leaders. It is our responsibility to advocate for our children to make the world better for them. And if we just tell them that that’s what they have to do, we’re harming them. Even if it’s not individual trauma, we are harming the collective by plugging our ears and pretending that this is just normal and how it’s gonna go when the reality is fast approaching that it isn’t, you know even just for the last 10 years, I’ve been talking about this study that came out 10 years ago.

Leah McDermott: 27:29

A study came out that said, in 20 years, so we’re halfway through this. Now, 80% of jobs that existed would be done by technology robots, ai, right? And now we’re halfway through that. I’ve been saying that for 10 years. Every time a parent was worried, what about high school? What about college? Literally, the world will not be the same when your child grad,, the work that we are training them to do, to be good little office workers, good little factory workers, those jobs will not exist. Okay. like, it’s, the writing is on the wall here. We have to start revolutionizing, we have to change. And everything’s exactly the same in the school systems, but everything’s different in the world. And now AI is taking off. And I, I fully expect that study to be null and void because it’s gonna be faster by the time, our current high school freshmen graduate, there won’t be jobs for them.

Leah McDermott: 28:19

And we’re just pretending like everything is normal. And the implications for that go far beyond education. But we even know now the top job, like the top employers in the world, the skills they’re looking for are good communicators, good problem solvers, creative thinkers, inventors, people with good creative ideas. And that’s not what you get when you push a child through a system and tell them, there’s only one right answer. You’re this way is the only way. Fill you with facts, you know, a mile wide and an inch deep. Test taking skills are not what employers are looking for. , you know, sit down and be quiet. That’s not what people are looking for anymore. They don’t want quiet little office workers. They want people that are inventive and creative. And if all we are doing is squashing that, we can’t expect them to find it again 18 years later or 13.

Leah McDermott: 29:18

That’s right. Yeah. So it’s, it’s, there’s, I’m, I’m grateful to be a part of this revolution, I guess, because like things, things we can pretend like nothing is happening, but it is. Then, the building is on fire. It is crumbling from within and everyone’s pretending that it’s fine, and it is going to just, eventually, it will just, just implode things are going. So we can choose as a society, as a government, as a collective group of parents, because the power that we have together is actually remarkable. But we’re so afraid to have these conversations or band together and do things. Maybe it does just take all of us caring only about our children for a while, for there to be enough of an impact. We can come in and fix it and make the change for the better. Or we can pretend like it’s nothing’s happening and it will implode. And then we will have children that are left without a place to go, without a place to be. And parents without care. Like, it’s at a crisis point.

Adrienne Miller: 30:21

I have some more radical things to say. Yeah. So , one thing is, I find it so fascinating that our generation, I feel like is the first generation that was kind of like, uh, we need to fix this work life balance issue. And we don’t want to work for the same employer until we’re 65 and then retire, and then we get to enjoy our lives and let’s rethink our priorities. How many of us have quit our jobs to then, um, be entrepreneurs or then, you know, start up that creative gig that we were interested in when we were 13. So we are very much, I feel that generation, and we are also the generation that turns around and is like, Nope, go to school at five and get into this rat race. So like, we hypo, like, it’s so hypocritical that we have taken ourselves off of this conveyor belt and been like, no, I don’t wanna work a soul sucking nine to five.

Adrienne Miller: 31:24

Oh, but my kids, yeah, absolutely. Let’s get them on that train as soon as we can. And oh, you’re three, it’s time for flashcards and oh my God, you’re gonna be behind. And we’re starting them in that rivalry. So one, we need to take a huge look in the mirror and look at how we feel about those things that we’re doing for ourselves. How many Instagram accounts are we seeing where it’s like, let’s be wild and free, and let’s travel and let’s be unconventional and let’s create our own jobs only to turn around and set our ki kids up for the exact same path that we were on. And then the second radical thing I really wanna say is this is so much more than just a brick and mortar like school issue. This is so much about that personal liberation and consent. And it, like, it just goes so deep into how I want my kids to be treated and what is their emotional wellbeing.

Adrienne Miller: 32:25

And I am, you know, getting the soul sucked out of me from trends, from overshopping, from getting into debt just to keep up with the Joneses from, you know, owning these brand new cars and having payments I can’t afford. Like, and putting ourselves in these systems that trap us to the detriment of our wellbeing. All of our nervous systems are out of control. We no one’s regulating properly. No one’s grounded. And so you have these movements. I see like wellness movements happen and you know, people exploiting that as well as everyone does. But but still, like, you have this capitalism

Leah McDermott: 33:07

Must keep going sometimes.

Adrienne Miller: 33:08

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. But you do see this awakening, like people clearly, you know, myth of normal by Gabor Matte, like it, we are living in this toxic, completely unsustainable society. And so you see anxiety on the rise, you see depression on the rise, you see a DHD on the rise. You see all of these things happening that come not exclusively, but come from living in a society that runs on fumes, on burning people out on, uh, tying our productivity to our self-worth and tying our achievements to what that means as success. Right. And so it’s so much more, I think I wish people would understand that, that it’s not just me being like, oh, I’m taking my kids outta school and doing this cool life experiment. No. Like, it is our entire society, if we looked at how we’re doing, how our emotions are, how our mental state is, we all see that that’s in crisis.

Adrienne Miller: 34:13

And yet we refuse to look at the holistic view that, oh, this is actually all tied in to the unhoused, to trauma, to how we take care of, uh, each other, right. To, to school, to food, to like all of it. It’s all connected because the system, and I will say this is another like thing I get, um, backlash on a lot too. We’re decolonizing. So it’s very colonial to go in to control people, to set up a one-way system to set up these rules and rigidity and keep people disconnected and keep people from living free. Ke keeping people from, like, you have to keep them in these cogs in this wheel to keep the whole system running.

Leah McDermott: 35:03

It forces a class structure, which is what Yeah. What this way capitalism needs to survive. And you know, you’ve said, you said a bunch of things and like that are so, so poignant and it’s not a school issue, it’s a society issue. Ultimately. It is, is an issue that whether you have children or not, whether they’re in the system or not, even if you’re fully homeschooling unschooling, it’s still going to affect you. And I think it’s, so what you bring up about our generation is so poignant because it’s, on one hand, it’s amazing to be a part of that. Right. To, ’cause you’re right, we are like, you know what? We’re not doing what our parent, I see my, my father now, he’ll, he’s about to turn 60. So my parents were very young when they had me. And, and he, every time I see him or my mom, it’s just counting days until they can retire.

Leah McDermott: 35:49

Yes. Instead of getting to enjoy anything now it’s just, yeah. Survive until then. Make it until then. Suck it up until then and paying your dues. Yeah. And, and my, you know, my, my in-laws are about 10 years older than my parents, and they retired and immediately their health fell off. So they can’t even enjoy Yes. Anything they worked for, which is so common. And so our generation, we saw that and we’re like, ew. Like not to mention our college degrees were, were in debt and they gave us nothing. You know, just last weekend we met with my husband’s college buddies. We all, they weren’t at the, at a reunion, so they all got together and out of a room of about 20 people, one of them had a job in the area where he got a degree. Everybody else was doing something completely different.

Leah McDermott: 36:39

So not only were we lied to about, you know, just go to school and go to college and keep learning and get good grades and you’ll have a good paying job. That why we also see the, the joylessness of it. And so I think what’s happening now is that we’re having these collective trauma responses. I’m not gonna do that. I’m going to start an Instagram. I’m gonna be an entrepreneur, I’m gonna be a creative, I’m gonna travel. I’ll spend my money in ways that make me happy. I’m not worried. So we are almost like going back to try to heal this childhood wound, but, you know, generationally. But when it comes to our kids, then it’s just fear. And that’s all we react to we don’t want. Of course, if you ask us on an individual level, is that what you want for your children?

Leah McDermott: 37:29

Well, of course, no I don’t want me, so I certainly don’t want it for my kids. But then that fear comes up in that Stockholm syndrome almost of, well, that’s still what you have to do though. You still have to, that’s right. School, you still have to go to college. You still have to get a job and be an adult. But we don’t know how to break that because we weren’t actually ever given tools to process that, to heal from that. And so while I’m grateful for these wellness movements, I think it’s really important that we collectively talk about that trauma and how to process it and how to deal with it. Because until we are able to do that for ourselves, we can’t, it’s like, it’s like the blind leading the blind. We can’t adequately help our children and guide our children if we are broken and everything we do is just a trauma response or a fear reaction.

Leah McDermott: 38:18

Then we are just, we’re almost causing more harm because we’ll, we’ll have a good idea and we’ll have the right inclination. And I see this with parents that I work with all the time, is they see the school’s not right. So they start to homeschool and everything is great. And like, yeah, I trust my child. I love it. We’re outside, we’re playing. That’s all I’m worried about. And then their child’s five and they’re not reading yet, and they just it’s like that someone cracks an egg of fear over their head and they can’t function anymore. And instead of just saying, whoa, why do I feel that way? Why, why is that happening? 

Adrienne Miller: 38:51

What, let’s unpack that. Yeah.

Leah McDermott: 38:52

Is this really abnormal? Or is the system wrong? Like, why am I having these feelings? And instead of doing that work or someone giving them the tools to do that work, they react out of fear. And then, okay, well I have to send you to school because I’m obviously failing. Or I need to get all these workbooks and do it the way that everybody else does it because obviously it’s not working. And then all that does is reinforce to the child, I’m broken. I didn’t do it right. My mom’s upset with me. Or my parents feel like failures. And, and then we’re just cracking that foundation of trust and connection with our child. And we’re just repeating that cycle. Right? I think the more that I work in this realm of homeschooling and unschooling, the more I realize the children aren’t actually the ones that need help the children. No.

Adrienne Miller: 39:38

Yeah. They’re fine.

Leah McDermott: 39:39

They’re fine. They, if they are unburdened, they’re great. We are the ones, the parents are the ones that are the ones with the problems, with the wounds, with the traumas. Yeah. That we have to work on.

Adrienne Miller: 39:52

Yeah. That is the number one thing I start with in any of my, uh, like coaching sessions or anything with unschooling parents is just start with yourself. Start prioritizing your needs because number, I guarantee you, you’re at the bottom of your list and your kids are probably at the top, but they don’t actually need you to start trying or start trying. But to keep controlling their behavior. You don’t need to fixate on them and what they’re doing. Take a breather, take a step back, do your own, work on yourself, manage your triggers. Learn how to regulate your nervous system. ’cause guaranteed you weren’t taught any of that. Yep. Guaranteed you’re holding on to something from your past or conditioning. Start unpacking your beliefs about just the idea that learning can only happen in school or learning happens linearly or that learning can’t happen.

Adrienne Miller: 40:49

Like just understand that kids are born and wired to learn already. Yeah. So just step out of the way. ’cause the only thing that’s been modeled to us, as you said, is top-down teaching hierarchical systems of power and how we parent our kid, those power dynamics. I’m the boss, you’re the child, I’m the adult, you’re the underdeveloped one. And instead of doing that just one live your life like school was only invented a couple hundred years or so ago. So it’s new in human. Yeah. Yeah. Human evolution. And two, it hasn’t changed since it, the day it started, it looks quite the same. It’s still that same archaic, but what is so wrong with living? You were enjoying your child from zero to five already or hopefully, hopefully hopefully you had children to enjoy time with them, not to control them, not to have someone else raise them for 30 hours a week.

Adrienne Miller: 41:51

Hopefully you had children to have a connection and relationship with them and to spend life with them. Just do that. And then, so forget the curriculum. Don’t buy anything. Just leave it. Just live your life and enjoy your children. Start there and everything else will start falling into place because you’ll realize that kids are happy when you leave them alone. Yeah. And kids will learn when you leave them alone. And you’ll start to realize that taking care of yourself actually feels really good and feels really fulfilling. And that is the number one thing that will change the entire energy in your home and will change your relationship with your kids. It’s not gonna be finding the right curriculum. It’s not gonna be having that perfect homeschool classroom, or the perfect planner, or the perfect plan for that year of homeschooling. ’cause kids, as we all do resist control, we resist obedience and just demands and orders.

Adrienne Miller: 42:52

No one likes that. Yeah. We don’t like that. So why would a five-year-old And, and I just, I always hear the kids need structure. Kids need that, which is so much different than kids need stability. Yeah. I absolutely preach stability, emotional stability, financial stability. Right. Like that calmness that my parents are here, they love me unconditionally. That’s not gonna change the structure. Part of having the nine to 10 is Latin and 10 to 11 is poetry and 11 to 12 is whatever. That’s not stability. Right. That is just imposed coerced routine. That is so much different from having a stable home environment because you and I, we grew up with structure. And how well did that turn out? Like we grew up with rigidity and planning and structure and a plan. Yeah. Did we have that, you know, unconditional support, flexibility, freedom, love, all of that stable stuff that it, for healthy childhood development. No. That’s gonna be your much bigger key.

Leah McDermott: 43:58

Yeah. And even now, even now, I’m almost 40 and I, the emotion that I still feel when someone tries to plan something too far in advance, like, ugh, . And it just is so gross because it’s a rejection of that. Having everything planned for me in childhood, that every moment was so structured because not only was that true in education, my mother was a compulsive planner. Every moment still is. And that just, it gives me just like I should be over it. Right. There’s still, they’re still healing. And I think it’s really important that we talk about that part because there’s, deschooling has become a buzzword that it’s like this time, this, it’s structured, this structured time of leave them alone only in the name of coming back to normal then. And that’s what I see so often when parents pull their kids outta school, like, well, we need a period of deschooling.

Leah McDermott: 44:56

I know that. Okay. But that’s, that’s not, that’s not what this is. Okay. Because Deschooling itself is an unlearning healing process that everybody in the home is going to need. Not just your child. You are going to need that as well. And it isn’t something that has an end date because it’s something is going to keep coming up every time you think you’ve gotten over this. Like, oh, that doesn’t bother me anymore. Some new thing, some new fear is gonna start bothering you. And you’re gonna have to dig back down in to why that is and how you’re gonna react. And it’s, it is going to be ongoing. And the goal should never be to get back to normal because that’s what we’re leaving in the first place. The goal is to completely shift what normal looks like so that now the way you live is no longer contingent on a bell schedule a school schedule, or even an arbitrary timeline of when we should know things and how we should be learning them.

Leah McDermott: 45:59

It’s, we, the goal is to change everything and to just exist as humans in this world. This big, beautiful, amazing world that we have the privilege of getting to like, explore for the time that we’re here and hopefully bring our kids along with that. And, um, to go back, one of the things I, that you mentioned was to for now, leave them alone. You know, just leave your kids alone. And I think, I think that scares a lot of people to hear that. Like it’s Yeah. Hands off or will they need me for or it’s lazy parenting. Yeah, exactly. And I think what’s really important to understand there is wrapped up in that really in a, in a more like, um, uh, professional or official way of saying that is that burden of proof, which is what is actually causing so much harm to our student. Yeah.

Adrienne Miller: 46:46

Can you talk about that for a second?

Leah McDermott: 46:47

So the burden of proof is your child or the learner feeling like they have to prove that something has been learned. And if you look in the, you know, modern traditional education system that’s at every turn, at every single turn, right? Pests, quizzes, pop quizzes, getting called on. It’s your turn to read. Literally everything we do is there’s some sort of proof of learning involved. And, and it’s gotten into homeschooling, uh, a hundred percent. Even as parents, even who parents who don’t homeschool. There’s this constant, and people will do it to stranger’s, kids. Like, what color is that? How many is there? Like, there’s just this constant, it’s like permeated our society to quiz children, to force that knowledge acquisition, to show that they’re learning something. And as homeschooling parents who are not confident yet who are new to this, or they don’t really feel safe or comfortable doing it, that is almost always amplified because not only are they feeling like they have to do that to their child ’cause that’s the right thing to do, they’re also feeling like they now have to perform.

Leah McDermott: 47:54

And the weight of the, the weight of their child’s performance is now on their shoulders because they’re doubting Mother-in-law is watching the school system is watching. Their partner who’s not supportive of homeschooling, is watching all of these entities and voices. And even their own unhealed voice is saying, you’re gonna mess this up. You’re gonna do it wrong. You better make sure you know all of these things. And so we place this burden of proof on children because it’s easy to oppress children and all that, that really does, even if they are properly regurgitating this information. All that’s happening is that we’re making them hate it. And so now we have just this society, how many people, you know, early on we talked about how trauma isn’t always seen. How many people out there will tell you what they’re bad at? Like, oh, I’m terrible at math.

Leah McDermott: 48:42

I can’t do math. Like, because they were told that at a young age or they were made to feel that way. That’s it forever. That’s how they feel. And statistically we make up our mind about that by fourth grade. That’s like statistically that’s when we decide how, what, what we’re good at, how, who we are as learners. So nine years old and that’s it forever. That’s how you’re gonna feel without significant work. I’m, I’m bad at writing. I’m a terrible artist. I’m a terrible singer. I don’t like reading. And we do these things to our children because young children don’t feel that way. They don’t feel that way naturally, that they’re bad at something. They don’t feel that way until they’re made to feel that way. And that, you know, you talked again about kids being resilient. Life will present those resiliency already.

Leah McDermott: 49:28

We don’t have to force trauma to That’s right. To engage in resilience. Other kids will compare them, they’ll compare themselves. They’ll see other people that will naturally happen. But when all we are doing in the name of education or the name of learning is oppressing, forcing and forcing that proof, we’re harming them because then they’re just going to hate it. And that’s the worst part of, that’s the worst way to feel, is that you’re, you don’t like something. And even, even just the other day. So just a short little anecdote with this, my son’s one friend, he’s about to turn 16. And last year he actually homeschooled through our program, through Bridge Academy with us. And this year went back to school. His parents had him go back to school. It’s only been 10 days into the school year. And he was here yesterday and talking about how much, it’s such a waste of my time. I hate this. And, but, but he’ll say, I’m doing good. My grades are fine. Right. So he’s even the rationalization already, like he’s that.

Adrienne Miller: 50:30

That’s what’s important.

Leah McDermott: 50:31

That impulse to say, my grades are good. It’s, I’m still good, I’m good, I’m doing good, but I’m miserable. So what, like, if a child can verbalize that, what are we doing? Like Yeah.

Adrienne Miller: 50:46

Often and you’re not doing good if you’re miserable. 

Leah McDermott: 50:48

Somebody see that like, I’m doing good, but I hate it and it’s useless. Like, come on. You know? 

Adrienne Miller: 50:55

Yeah, yeah.

Leah McDermott: 50:57

They’re voicing this for themselves at when are we going to, as the adults, as the people with power say, what are we doing here?

Leah McDermott: 51:05

Well, and that’s just it. Like Childism and Adultism are quite new. I don’t know that I had heard those terms before last year. And so racism is widely accepted. Sexism is widely accepted, but childism and adultism and this movement, this child liberation movement is so new, which is fantastic that we’re heading there. But that is really at the core of everything that we’re talking about. So proof of learning. Why do we feel like we have the right to demand performance from another? It’s usually because we feel a sense of entitlement and ownership over that person. So adults, I always say, and this is so radical, but you don’t actually own your children. So they might be your children. You don’t own them, you don’t possess them. They’re not a possession. They’re not your property. So you cannot demand things from them like that.

Adrienne Miller: 52:08

And you cannot treat them like they are a lesser human or have less rights. Now societally children have hardly any rights. We have the un you know, convention on the rights of the child that the US hasn’t accepted, which of course, but . But,  many, I think every other country has. But,  you have these people born with inherent human rights that we ignore from day one. And we, it always falls under where it’s my child. So I get to choose, about anything. Right. Vaccinations, what have you. And we get into this mindset that we then, you know, you, every single metaphor is we’re shaping them. They’re like these bonsai trees that we’re shaping or whatever, the clay thing. And we’re all, every single metaphor is me being the creator and you being my project and me molding you or shaping you into what you’re gonna become.

Adrienne Miller: 53:07

Instead of looking at them as their own separate entities from us with their own natures temperaments, personalities, dreams, fears, hopes, choices, voice like all of that that we just refuse to accept because we’re so, oh, this is my baby and I’m attached to them. And, and they, their behavior reflects on me as a parent. And then when you throw society into it with people are watching and looking at my children and judging all of that, it’s so fear-based. And it’s so just power based on I’m bigger. I’m going to control and I’m gonna make those decisions mostly because I’ve been conditioned to think that this is supposed to look a certain way and child’s childhood is supposed to look like this and you’re supposed to act this way. And I need to start with unconditioning myself from all of those things. And then as children do, ask why and keep asking why, why do they have to wear that? Why do they have to say that? Why do they have to read by that time? Why do they have to have proper pencil grip at the age of four?

Leah McDermott: 54:13

Literally

Adrienne Miller: 54:14

Can’t digging. Yeah, that’s right.

Leah McDermott: 54:16

Physically can’t. Yeah.

Adrienne Miller: 54:18

When we have, like, we have scientific, we do proof. Yes. About healthy and wholesome childhood development, but because we are trapped in this system of moneymaking, of keeping up a certain lifestyle that, oh, that was the last red thing I wanted to say, was one, and people hate this, this, you need to be really honest about why you had children. So would you have had children if school didn’t exist? How many children would you have? Would you rethink your lifestyle and your finances if you knew that school wasn’t available? It just didn’t exist. Let’s say, what would your life look like? How do you prioritize your lifestyle now over the emotional wellbeing of your children? Because I think that’s another thing. Now, I’m not talking about the person living paycheck to pay paycheck. I’m talking about the person with the giant house, with the fake hair and the fake lashes and the $80,000 truck in the driveway and, you know, eating out or the $2,000 birthday party for their 4-year-old.

Adrienne Miller: 55:27

I really like can’t hear one more time that I can’t afford to homeschool from that demographic. And I think people don’t wanna admit that it’s that they don’t wanna be around their kids or they don’t wanna change their lifestyle to make those sacrifices to homeschool, or they haven’t unpacked. Oh, maybe the reason why I don’t feel patient enough to be around my kids is because all the work that I need to do that I am refusing to do to the detriment of my kids’ emotional and mental health and wellbeing. Because school exists and because it’s such a normalized part of our society that, oh, well good here, you go go. It’s September.

Leah McDermott: 56:15

And I think you touched on something really important there though, that isn’t just something that’s, I think it’s an issue across the board, regardless of income level or class station, is that we don’t know how to be together. Yes. And that’s the biggest, you know, my son, my middle son plays, like competitive soccer. And last season I was the coach for his team. And it broke my heart hearing things like a week into summer break, moms would say, like, literally a mom said, I can’t wait until school starts again because I wanna kill myself being around them all day. And I  think again, it’s a bigger problem. It’s a societal problem. We feel forced to have children. How many people wouldn’t have chosen children, but they did it because they literally felt forced to by the society, by family pressure. We wouldn’t probably many, we still shame people who choose not to have children.

Leah McDermott: 57:08

And I think that’s a very selfless choice if you know that you can’t be that parent that you would’ve wanted for yourself. But it’s a problem across the board. We don’t know how to be together because we are not, because we tell, as soon as a mom has a baby, we tell them to separate them, put them in another room, let them cry until they fall asleep. We intentionally, for the sake of capitalism, one way or another, we intentionally separate families. And we don’t know. That’s the biggest struggle that I ultimately they’ll say, you know, parents will say it’s other things. They’re resisting the work. They don’t wanna do whatever. But it’s just, it’s really because we don’t have routines that are encouraged where the family is a unit where we enjoy being together. You know, my, my husband will go out to have, you know, he’ll go out to dinner or whatever with his friends and he says it’s almost awkward because all they do is sit around and they complain about their wives and they complain about their kids.

Leah McDermott: 58:03

Yeah. It’s like, I enjoy being with my family. Yeah. I built this family to be together to do things together. We don’t constantly feel the need to be away from each other, but that takes a lot of work and a lot of healing because it’s almost like breaking a, a, a generational wound and a generational trauma of choosing something different so that your kids don’t know any different. And if you were raised in a home where you were kicked out, even the jokes like, oh, in the summer we didn’t dare go inside because my mom would’ve like, well, that’s really sad, . Like, wouldn’t your mom want you there as much as she could have you? But they did. They didn’t. And, and people don’t. And it hasn’t been, it hasn’t been that way for a couple generations. We don’t know how to be together. And that’s, that’s something that I think we need to help parents with because they don’t, they’re told to separate their kids as soon as they’re born, six weeks maternity leave, that’s all we get. And then you send them to a care provider.

Adrienne Miller: 59:06

Which again, this colonial idea of, I was reading about breastfeeding and this one article that I came across was talking about how when Britain, you know, was going across and colonizing the world, they talked about savages sleeping together, huddled together like rats, like all these terrible, terrible metaphors. And then you see the invention of the nursery and then you would see the invention of the stroller and you see the invention of a wet nurse, right? All of these things that is very much a colonial idea to not live in that village. ’cause that’s what the people that we are colonizing, that’s what they do. And that is not civil. And so it is a hundred percent rooted in that very early, you know, these colonial ideas of what everyone else does when you look around the world, that is what’s healthy is the village and the connection and the community. And that’s exactly what we’re disconnected from, disconnected from ourselves and our bodies and our families as you say. So it really is just coming full circle to how we started this interview. It’s all connected and once you start unraveling, it just keeps going and just keep learning about these things that are all absolutely connected. And I would talk to you forever, Leah, but I think you both need to go.

Leah McDermott: 60:27

Yes.

Adrienne Miller: 60:29

So, great. Such a great conversation. Do you wanna end with anything? You have the ear of, you know, my demographic is mostly homeschoolers, unschoolers, maybe people that are curious, but what do you wanna end on?

Leah McDermott: 60:40

So the one way I always love to, to end these kinds of things is to say, you know.

Leah McDermott: 60:47

When you have those fears, especially if you have mostly homeschoolers, when you have those fears, just nothing bad is gonna happen in 24 hours, right? Like not, there’s no emergency right now. So anytime you have a fear or like insecurity something, I’m doing this wrong, I don’t know, give yourself 24 hours and just watch your child strip away the academic check marks and what this person said and what that person’s doing. And just for 24 hours, give yourself permission to just take in your child exactly as they are. Because I promise you, in those 24 hours, that fear is gonna dissipate a little bit. And your child is gonna show you some of the most amazing things that you were not even aware of, that they were capable of doing. Things like how they communicate with siblings, how they are capable physically, a talent that they have.

Leah McDermott: 61:40

And they’ll, they’ll share something with you. Like we get so focused as new homeschoolers, especially on those, that checklist and those academic points. And your child is so much more than that. And how would you feel if you were only everything about you just came down to this checklist, right? You are so much more than that. You want people to see that the same is true for your child. So anytime you’re having that fear, that insecurity, give yourself 24 hours, I’m not gonna think about that. I’m not gonna worry about that. I’m just going to tune in and see who my child is in this moment. And you will learn so much about who they are.

Adrienne Miller: 62:17

And I will add to just also take 24 hours for yourself and regulate yourself. ’cause if you come back with your emotional capacity at a hundred percent, you will also view the entire world so much differently. But if you are running on fumes, and if you are running on fear and being dysregulated, you will then make such different choices and you will see things so much differently. So take a step back for your child, take a step back for yourself, and then reassess. And then think, how did those last 24 hours feel? Yeah. Did you feel calm and not anxious and not frustrated? Were you in constant power struggles with your child? Or did you notice that everyone just calmed down when you stopped imposing these external standards and beliefs? And then what can you do to keep that feeling? ’cause that’s gonna be much more meaningful to determine the success of the life of your child.

Adrienne Miller: 63:18

And I use the word success very broadly, happiness and very, very differently than everyone else. But that will determine so much more than their grades or the age that they started reading or that how many numbers of pie they can recite. Like coming from someone who didn’t have any of that growing up. I had the degrees, I had, you know, the jobs that made money. I had all the checklist of things that should have made me a very successful person. And it wasn’t until I did all of that inner work that now I’m like, oh, now I’m happy at the age of 40 because I’ve, I actually do all these things that have nothing to do with school and church. And as you said, all those checklists. So give yourself that grace and that time you deserve to be taken care of. Not just so you can better show up for your child, but because you’re a human. And people forget about women as humans and mothers and caregivers, um, that we need that, that fulfillment for ourselves separate and independent from our chi children. Yeah.

Leah McDermott: 64:30

Well, and, and when we are dysregulated, and this is just as important for parents as it is for kids, everything feels like an emergency. When you have, when you are dysregulated, everything in your body physically feels like an emergency. And you will not respond, you will react. And reactions are for emergencies, quick thinking. CPR call 9 1 1. That is the way our body feels if we are dysregulated and we are not in a state of calm and inner peace. And so we can’t make rational, responsive decisions about anything if we’re in a state of dysregulation. That’s true for your child. That’s true for you. That’s just being a human. So getting ourselves out of this, just that constant state of dysregulation is really, really important.

Adrienne Miller: 65:14

Yeah. Absolutely. Okay, Leah, thank you so much. I love everything that you do. And I am so grateful for you in this space. You’re such a needed voice. And whenever you post something, I’m like, oh, she is not holding back. And I love it . And it’s concise and it’s clear away, . Yeah, yeah, that’s right. It’s ’cause we turned 40 and now we’re like, oh, listen or don’t . Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s true. Okay. Thank you. We’ll chat soon, I’m sure. Yes. Thanks so much.